Another discussion about math, artificial chemistry and computation

I have to record this ongoing discussion from G+, it’s too interesting.  Shall do it from  my subjective viewpoint, be free to comment on this, either here or in the original place.

(Did the almost the same, i.e. saved here some of my comments from an older discussion, in the post   Model of computation vs programming language in molecular computing. That recording was significant, for me at least, because I made those comments by thinking at the work on the GLC actors article, which was then in preparation.)

Further I shall only lightly edit the content of the discussion (for example by adding links).

It started from this post:

 “I will argue that it is a category mistake to regard mathematics as “physically real”.”  Very interesting post by Louis Kauffman: Mathematics and the Real.
Discussed about it here: Mathematics, things, objects and brains.
Then followed the comments.
Greg Egan‘s “Permutation City” argues that a mathematical process itself is identical in each and any instance that runs it. If we presume we can model consciousness mathematically it then means: Two simulated minds are identical in experience, development, everything when run with the same parameters on any machine (anwhere in spacetime).

Also, it shouldn’t matter how a state came to be, the instantaneous experience for the simulated mind is independent of it’s history (of course the mind’s memory ought to be identical, too).He then levitates further and proposes that it’s not relevant wether the simulation is run at all because we may find all states of such a mind’s being represented scattered in our universe…If i remember correctly, Egan later contemplated to be embarassed about this bold ontological proposal. You should be able to find him reasoning about the dust hypothesis on the accompanying material on his website.Update: I just saw that wikipedia’s take on the book has the connection to Max Tegmark in the first paragraph:
> […] cited in a 2003 Scientific American article on multiverses by Max Tegmark.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permutation_City

___________________________
+Refurio Anachro  thanks for the reference to Permutation city and to the dust hypothesis, will read and comment later. For the moment I have to state my working hypothesis: in order to understand basic workings of the brain (math processing included), one should pass any concept it is using through the filter
  • local not global
  • distributed not sequential
  • no external controller
  • no use of evaluation.

From this hypothesis, I believe that notions like “state”, “information”, “signal”, “bit”, are concepts which don’t pass this filter, which is why they are part of an ideology which impedes the understanding of many wonderful things which are discovered lately, somehow against this ideology. Again, Nature is a bitch, not a bit 🙂

That is why, instead of boasting against this ideology and jumping to consciousness (which I think is something which will wait for understanding sometimes very far in the future), I prefer to offer first an alternative (that’s GLC, chemlambda) which shows that it is indeed possible to do anything which can be done with these ways of thinking coming from the age of the invention of the telephone. And then more.

After, I prefer to wonder not about consciousness and it’s simulation, but instead about vision and other much more fundamental processes related to awareness. These are taken for granted, usually, and they have the bad habit of contradicting any “bit”-based explanation given up to date.

___________________________

the past lives in a conceptual domain
would one argue then that the past
is not real
___________________________
+Peter Waaben  that’s easy to reply, by way of analogy with The short history of the  rhino thing .
Is the past real? Is the rhinoceros horn on the back real? Durer put a horn on the rhino’s back because of past (ancient) descriptions of rhinos as elephant killers. The modus operandi of that horn was the rhino, as massive as the elephant, but much shorter, would go under the elephant’s belly and rip it open with the dedicated horn.  For centuries, in the minds of people, rhinos really have a horn on the back. (This has real implications, alike, for example, with the idea that if you stay in the cold then you will catch a cold.) Moreover, and even more real, there are now real rhinos with a horn on the back, like for example Dali’s rhino.
I think we can safely say that the past is a thing, and any of this thing reifications are very real.
___________________________
+Peter Waaben, that seems what the dust hypothesis suggests.
+Marius Buliga, i’m still digesting, could you rephrase “- no use of evaluation” for me? But yes, practical is good!
___________________________
[My comment added here: see the posts

]

___________________________

+Marius Buliga :

+Refurio Anachro  concretely, in the model of computation based on lambda calculus you have to add an evaluation strategy to make it work (for example, lazy, eager, etc).  The other model of computation, the Turing machine is just a machine, in the sense that you have to build a whole architecture around to use it. For the TM you use states, for example, and the things work by knowing the state (and what’s under the reading head).  Even in pure functional programming, besides their need for an evaluation strategy, they live with this cognitive dissonance: on one side they they rightfully say that they avoid the use of states of the imperative programming, and on the other side they base their computation on evaluation of functions! That’s funny, especially if you think about the dual feeling which hides behind “pure functional programming has no side effects” (how elegant, but how we get real effects from this?).
In distinction from that. in distributed GLC there is no evaluation needed for computation. There are several causes of this. First is that there are no values in this computation. Second is that everything is local and distributed. Third is that you don’t have eta reduction (thus no functions!). Otherwise, it resembles with pure functional programming if you  see the core-mask construction as the equivalent of the input-output monad (only that you don’t have to bend backwards to keep both functions and no side effects in the model).
[My comment added here: see behaviour 5 of a GLC actor explained in this post.
]
Among the effects is that it goes outside the lambda calculus (the condition to be a lambda graph is global), which simplifies a lot of things, like for example the elimination of currying and uncurrying.  Another effect is that is also very much like automaton kind of computation, only that it is not relying on a predefined grid, nor on an extra, heavy handbook of how to use it as a computer.
On a more philosophical side, it shows that it is possible to do what the lambda calculus and the TM can do, but it also can do things without needing signals and bits and states as primitives. Coming back a bit to the comparison with pure functional programming, it solves the mentioned cognitive dissonance by saying that it takes into account the change of shape (pattern? like in Kauffman’s post) of the term during reduction (program execution), even if the evaluation of it is an invariant during the computation (no side effects of functional programming). Moreover, it does this by not working with functions.
___________________________
+Marius Buliga “there are no values in this computation” Not to disagree, but is there a distinction between GLC graphs that is represented to a collection of possible values? For example, topological objects can differ in their chromatic, Betti, genus, etc. numbers. These are not values like those we see in the states, signals and bits of a TM, but are a type of value nonetheless.
___________________________
+Stephen Paul King  yes, of course, you can stick values to them, but  the fact is that you can do without, you don’t need them for the sake of computation. The comparison you make with the invariants of topological objects is good! +Louis Kauffman  made this analogy between the normal form of a lambda term and such kinds of “values”.
I look forward for his comments about this!
___________________________
+Refurio Anachro  thanks again for the Permutation city reference. Yes, it is clearly related to the budding Artifficial Connectomes idea of GLC and chemlambda!
It is also related with interests into Unlimited Detail 🙂 , great!
[My comment added here: see the following quote from the Permutation city wiki page

The Autoverse is an artificial life simulator based on a cellular automaton complex enough to represent the substratum of an artificial chemistry. It is deterministic, internally consistent and vaguely resembles real chemistry. Tiny environments, simulated in the Autoverse and filled with populations of a simple, designed lifeform, Autobacterium lamberti, are maintained by a community of enthusiasts obsessed with getting A. lamberti to evolve, something the Autoverse chemistry seems to make extremely difficult.

Related explorations go on in virtual realities (VR) which make extensive use of patchwork heuristics to crudely simulate immersive and convincing physical environments, albeit at a maximum speed of seventeen times slower than “real” time, limited by the optical crystal computing technology used at the time of the story. Larger VR environments, covering a greater internal volume in greater detail, are cost-prohibitive even though VR worlds are computed selectively for inhabitants, reducing redundancy and extraneous objects and places to the minimum details required to provide a convincing experience to those inhabitants; for example, a mirror not being looked at would be reduced to a reflection value, with details being “filled in” as necessary if its owner were to turn their model-of-a-head towards it.

]

But I keep my claim that that’s enough to understand for 100 years. Consciousness is far away. Recall that first electricity appeared as  kind of life fluid (Volta to Frankenstein monster), but actually it has been used with tremendous success for other things.
I believe the same about artificial chemistry, computation, on one side, and consciousness on the other. (But ready to change this opinion if faced with enough evidence.)

___________________________

4 thoughts on “Another discussion about math, artificial chemistry and computation”

    1. Wow, I just saw that it says “Successful candidates will be working on 3D map editors, animation editors, game editors and laser scan clean up tools. Experience with QT and DirectX or OpenGL is a plus.”
      I might not be to long before we get games with UD! 🙂

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s